I purposefully avoid anime fans and their circlejerks these days so I can’t say for certain but I’m willing to bet this was very popular in those groups and was probably anime of the season – possibly year – for many people. Having watched since the start there were definitely times I’d agree, especially once the true show, the journey of Reg and Girl into the abyss began, as Made in Abyss can at times be something incredibly special. Most noteworthy is the perfect balance in a show of man vs nature of showcasing the genuine beauty and mystifying aspects of this pit as well as the treacherous horrors in it. Nature is always beautiful yet terrifying, and the directing here, especially early on, does a fantastic job of getting that across without being in your face about it nor subtle, but fittingly “natural”.
Gorgeous barely-traveled landscapes, all sorts of mysterious flora and fauna, and a general sense of unease yet curiosity for both the characters and the viewer through great “camera” shots and insert songs reminiscent of Wolf’s Rain subdued vocal tracks. For something created based on a shitty web manga that almost got cancelled before introducing every single thing they could to retain the otaku audience, this had an amazing amount of potential AND of already greatly executed content for a good while.
Then came the first bump in the road – Ozen the awful fucking “I don’t understand basic anatomy” hunchback who is 13 feet tall and somehow can break her spine and extend her neck 10 feet regularly to hunch over so far that it is completely impossible. She also changes entire size throughout her appearances from shot-to-shot because they didn’t know what they were fucking doing.
In fact, almost every problem with this show comes from meeting new characters in a story where there should be none, or at most VERY fleeting meetings that last maybe a few minutes (such as when that fun big guy catches them before they go deeper and has a really touching moment to say goodbye) or one night. Either the meeting itself lasts for several episodes and is just a terribly written shitheap or it’s that PLUS involves some seriously forced bullshit to tell itself it “needs” that character. In this case it’s only the former, we meet up with Ozen in her outpost thing along with – because, again, this is a webmanga aimed at anime otaku and not an actually good story – a cute boy who dresses as a girl, wears pouches on his ears (????), acts like a girl, and talks like a girl but still has a dick because this turns people on. He’s not a huge issue, in fact I actually liked his character and the scene of him saying how many people he’s had to see leave not bothering him but how hard this time is for him was really well done and got to me a little. Ozen, however, IS an issue beyond just her godawful stupid fucking design, hunchbacked, 30 feet tall bullshit – and so is this 3 episode arc that serves no real purpose aside bringing up questions that shouldn’t exist.
Girl while in this outpost needs to take a piss while everyone is sleeping, she gets lost, and stumbles upon a weird monster smashing around in a storage area. How does this headless, gutted, 1/10th of a monster make it to this storage room in the main building? We learn shortly after that it was locked in a special box that only Ozen’s whistle can open and is literally impossible to get in or out of otherwise, locked in a building that can only be opened by Ozen as well, and also several trees and an ELEVATOR away from the main building. Yet, inexplicably, this creature makes it all the way to a storage room in the main building by just somehow getting out of this locked cube, locked room, jumping around on trees with no head or real body, and even riding an elevator WHICH ONLY OPERATES IF THE PERSON IN THE MAIN BUILDING TELLS IT TO GO DOWN OR UP. Wow, it’s VERY talented!
You could say Ozen put it there but her own explanation of the events ends at “I put some meat inside the cube to see what would happen and left it there”. She never says she took it out and into the main place, she never says she had someone else do it, she never explained how it’d be possible for it to have done it – and okay, lets say she DID put it there.
1. How come none of the other explorers gave a shit? There are like 6 people aside all of the mentioned ones that are here right now.
2. How did Ozen guess that Girl would need to pee at like 2am when nobody else was awake, would go the wrong way from being lost in this place, and would specifically end up in the vicinity of that room as well as check it out when the bathroom doesn’t even seem to be remotely nearby?
3. How did she also make sure the monster didn’t go anywhere else?
4. why fucking bother doing this at all?
Ozen is retarded. She’s super edgy every fucking second she’s on screen for no fucking reason even her goddamn seiyuu tries making her sound like a fucking Halloween joke, she’s a cunt, she also beats the SHIT out of both Girl and Reg for absolutely no reason. I don’t even feel like talking more about this part, it’s just so fucking STUPID rather than offensively shit. Oh, actually one more thing – she’s canonically like 300 years old, nope, no explanation for that one not even some special abyss item or anything. She just is.
And then the true abyss for the quality of the show, an endless drop into complete and utter shit – the introduction of what fans are defending as “Justified edginess” mixed with Nanachi the rabbit girl, Mitty the horrific blob monstrosity, and Le Evil Edgelord Mastermind Antagonist.
This’ll take a bit so lets first establish something important. The curse of the abyss is a constant threat in this show and it’s really well thought out – it’s very clearly just hardcore altitude sickness from how deep they dive in here along with sometimes including psychosis from, well, look at the place they’re in and what they’re surrounded by – it’s not surprising you could lose your shit especially when there are forests upside down, sunlight coming from beneath you, and so on. It makes sense and is something realistic and believable mixed with just a slight tinge of fantasy to it that it works well because it doesn’t sound like retarded bullshit.
Then you learn it’s just retarded bullshit.
It can morph you into a bunny-person, it can turn you into a horrendous blob with one huge eye and a giant vagina-mouth, or it can just make you sick! WHATEVER SUITS THE NARRATIVE BEST AND CAN EXPLAIN WHY WE INTRODUCED AN ALMOST ALWAYS TOPLESS RABBIT GIRL FOR PEOPLE TO MASTURBATE TO SO THEY’LL KEEP READING! The curse is nonsense and is just a vague sense of “it does whatever will, at the time, aid the writer at making something dramatic or edgy happen”. What it doesn’t do, however, is force the writer to make any of those situations ACTUALLY MATTER.
Girl ends up poisoned by a spine covered monster that gets her in the hand, they escape (for some reason) to the highest fucking platform they can find when there were plenty of places to the sides, less high, and below that were safe from this creature – and so the curse of the abyss hits her hard. She immediately starts bleeding out of every orifice – eyes, mouth, nose, ears, vagina, ass – pint after pint nonstop. The bleeding is meaningless and is just there for show. This includes the INTERNAL bleeding which canonically exists and is brought up and, yes, magically heals itself – no the show doesn’t say magic, nor does magic exist in the show, they just say “the internal bleeding will be okay in a day or two”. That isn’t how internal bleeding works. It’s even less how it works when you just bled out, as a very tiny girl, the amount of blood that maybe 10 massive cows would have in them total and the amount of blood that even a fucking fully adult special forces member of the military would die from in about 3 minutes time NOT including the internal amount which would make it nearly instant. Blood in this show is part of the “justified edge” that people defend because, well…uh…it’s justified. Somehow. Somehow the bleeding out all over, the gorey imagery, the internal bleeding, the blood pouring out of her eyes and her skin turning gray – that’s all JUSTIFIED because it…I don’t know, ask them not me. When that stuff has LITERALLY NO RELEVANCE beyond THAT SECOND and is immediately – with no actual care given to it – fixed and not an issue, how is that justified and not just edgy to say “look how mature this is! the main character IS BLEEDING OUT OF HER EYES!”. It’s literally done so people will, as they have, post it on various websites and people will go HOLY SHIT WHAT FUCKING ANIME IS THAT GODDAMN I HAVE TO SEE IT IT ALMOST LOOKS AS GOOD AS BERSERK!!!!
By the way, she basically fucking dies here and is bleeding out of every organ and orifice from the curse – which should include her heart but clearly doesn’t because a non-character says “her heart is still beating” from across the way – and the cure? A kiss from the robot boy! You can argue all you like about how that doesn’t literally cure her but it DOES. Nothing is done about her blood loss, nothing is done about her BLEEDING that’s STILL happening, nothing is done about the fact she should be dead for awhile now – she just immediately after BEING KISSED her skin goes from gray to normal colored, the bleeding never happens again and is stopped, and she’s breathing just fine. Nothing else is done she’s just fixed because we needed it fixed because we can’t have anything happen to the main character.
Then there’s the arm which Reg cuts open and breaks the bone of to try and rip the hand off to keep the poison out of her system so she won’t die from THAT. Well, that’s fine too. Mitty the Monstrosity slobbers on her and, of course because we need a deus ex machina to get us out of this situation that the writer realized too late was edge for edge’s sake without planning how to get out of it and just wanting to keep readership up decided, well Mitty’s slobber is an anti-venom anti-toxin anti-anything poisonous in your body probably even clears out cholesterol and cures diabetes. There’s ZERO explanation on how this is possible, it just is because – as usual with this show – we NEED IT TO BE so IT IS. We slap some fucking mushrooms on the wound too. What happens? Her arm is 100% fine, literally totally okay even after we pull out shards of broken bone, SPECIFICALLY MENTION IN CANONICAL DIALOGUE that almost all the nerves in her arm were cut by Reg, how “I can’t fix those”, and after having a gaping hole in her hand. It’s all fine and works as if nothing ever happened.
Actually that applies to everything. Girl shows LITERALLY zero consequence from any of those events after a night’s rest and some slobber from a monster. Her blood? Eh. Her internal bleeding? Eh. Her nerve-less hand? Eh. It’s all fine. Well okay, she has a scar on her arm! WOAH! CONSEQUENCES WILL NEVER BE THE SAME! Truly JUSTIFIED! I mean afterall it’s totally justified to have all that happen to her and visually go gore-fest with it when NOTHING FUCKING ACTUALLY HAPPENS, right? Oh, that’s the OPPOSITE of justified, that’s literally what it means to be edgy shit just for the sake of getting attention? Oops! She doesn’t even have any problems, she squeezes her hand a few times after waking up and it works perfectly after like 10 minutes.
“Justified edge” could be applied to, say, that ‘person’ calling for help earlier in the show who turns out to be a corpse-eating monster-bird mimicing the sound of it’s prey which is now shown to us as a completely gutted dead man being eaten by hundreds of little bugs as well as this bird. That’s justified, it served a real purpose in the show and wasn’t just there for shock value or for viewership – it reminded us of the harshness of this world, reminded us of CONSEQUENCES, showed us how fucked up and dangerous it is, and was even while showing a guy with basically an entire cavern for a stomach somehow subtle about what it was doing. It meant something. All that shit I just described didn’t and, in fact, proved that there is nothing to fear because NO MATTER WHAT this main girl will ALWAYS be completely fine even in the worst case scenario where she’s literally fucking dead because they’ll just introduce a magical way to save her. Which, oh, right, her backstory is literally that she was stillborn so hey she’s ALREADY COME BACK FROM THE DEAD BEFORE SO WHY NOT AGAIN?
The edge doesn’t stop there though – nor the fuckawful writing. Nanachi and Mitty exist, and so does their backstory. Nanachi is a rabbit girl. Mitty is a monstrosity. And their backstory is entirely about Evil Badman who is evil, bad, and does human experimentation on children because he’s evil and bad and that’s what evil bad men like Evil Badman do. Nevermind that this entire show’s appeal was the Man Vs Nature aspect of it all, it’s now Man Vs Badman because a solid very poorly written in-your-face bad guy is a much more sellable antagonist than “nature itself”. I’ll remind you again, apparently the manga was going to be canned right before this stuff with Girl’s “justified edge”, Nanachi, Mitty, and Mr. Badman being introduced. I take back what I said about not serving a purpose by basically killing Girl just to magically fully cure all her wounds – the purpose was to keep the manga viewership from dwindling further and hopefully even, as it successfully did, raise interest in it because WOAH THEY GO THAT FAR?!?!?!!? INCREDIBLE! and then throw in WOAH THEY MADE A PEDO-PANDERING NAKED RABBIT-FURRY A MAIN CHARACTER? FUCK YES! and woah…dude…they killed that blob thing…holy shit man this show is fucking legit real deal hardcore shit man.
Yes, except the blob was never a character. It was as much a character – no, arguably less of one – as someone in an establishing shot walking by where the “camera” is situated for a tenth of a second. Fiction works in a special way that isn’t how reality does – Mitty, Nanachi, and Badman never existed until the moment they showed up, which was essentially only in the last 2 episodes of the show. Nanachi has a lot of screen time, she’s an early bit of a character. Badman is an antagonist so it makes sense for him not to be seen a lot after his introduction so that when he appears more it’s a “big deal”. Mitty, however, has almost no screen time, can’t speak, can’t emote, can’t do anything but make retarded baby noises and slobber and this is all she is shown doing and even that’s only shown for maybe 2 minutes total. She is absolutely not a fucking character – and she is the only “character” to die. How fucking convenient. Now, if this happened and was just a whatever who cares thing – sure, that guy’s body I mentioned is about the exact same level of a character dying as Mitty dying so okay, and the concept of taking her out of her misery even though she and Nanachi were so close in the past isn’t totally lame. The problem is the show tries SO FUCKING HARD to make it out like it MATTERS that this thing is dead now, like it should have you in fucking tears in your seat watching it – having to pause because you can’t see out of your eyes with how much water is pouring out nonstop and how tight your chest is from just how awful what you’ve had to witness is and how horrible an experience to see precious Mitty be torn asunder.
It’s nothing. Mitty is nothing so Mitty dying is nothing. In fact Mitty should have died ages ago SO WE WOULDN’T HAVE TO HAVE MR. EVIL BADMAN INTRODUCED because the entire reason he exists in the narrative is to explain her and this fucking furry so that they could exist because the latter would make more sales from fetishists and the former would make more sales from “woah…dude, I can’t believe they did that this is so mature and amazing”.
The finale of the entire show is a 45 minute episode entirely devoid of any relevance to Reg, main girl, or our journey as a whole with the exception of Nanachi going “okay I’ll join you now” – literally one line. The rest of those 45 minutes are dedicated to showing the irrelevant and completely stupid backstory of Nanachi and Mitty and how they came to exist. Evil Badman recruited children from orphanages around the globe to go into the abyss with him because he’s evil and bad, then when they got there he’d lock them up and do experiments on them – most notably one where they’d go down an elevator and come back up it to see the effects the curse would have on them while laughing evilly when he sees the product of his elevator antics because you need to remember how evil he is – so evil that even his entire body is covered from head to toe without any skin showing and a slightly robotic voice due to his mask because HE’S. FUCKING. EVIL. He also wears all black and, nobody questions it somehow, has an accessory that is two gross looking severed hands clasped together because, I mean, he’s evil. They’re probably the hands of his wife and child who he slaughtered because how fucking evil he is after raping them to death and eating their innards because FUCKING EVIL FUCK DAMN HE’S SO FUCKING EVIL GOD SHIT DAMN SO FUCKIN EVIL.
In this case, Nanachi turns into a rabbit-girl because she does. Mitty turns into a blob with a giant vagina-mouth and a big eye because she does. He laughs evilly and says how different this time has turned out because they’re special and for some reason doesn’t throw Mitty down with the other monster-blobs because he doesn’t. So their BACKSTORY EXPLANATION of HOW THEY BECAME A RABBIT AND BLOB is “they became a rabbit and blob”. That’s it. There is no attempt whatsoever to actually explain it aside that it happened. It also, as mentioned prior, destroys the great aspect of this “curse” which was originally a very realistic aspect that now just RANDOMLY turns people into rabbit-people, blobs, or who knows what else because it just fucking does.
Oh, right, he also is SO FUCKIN EVIL that beyond just turning Mitty into a blob he’s been torturing and trying to kill her because HE’S EVIL.
And, of course, the FINAL scene in the entire show is Evil Badman going “I’m fucking EVIL and now I want to rape the shit out of that fucking rabbit girl GOD I LOVE FUCKING RABBIT GIRLS FUCK I WANT TO FUCK THAT LITTLE BITCH SO HARD because that’ll make even more sales so now I am going to be a permanent antagonist who, if there is a season 2, is out to get the group because I am Evil Badman and evil never rests.”
Made in Abyss is another Erased-tier disappointment; an incredible start, an unending amount of fantastic potential for something truly special, and a writer who has absolutely no skill, talent, or integrity. There’s just not much more to say aside to continue repeating that this show, rather the manga, completely lost hold on what it was originally clearly trying to be all in the name of raising viewership and making sales. Everything up to Ozen was anime of the year material, even with Ozen’s bullshit it was still alright and ended up bouncing back after. Then came the shit I described and made it just a complete fucking mess. On top of that the writer included loads of jokes about naked little girls, little girls playing with little boy penises, and little boys becoming erect due to being around naked little girls throughout the show especially early on and within minutes of the show coming to it’s total conclusion because pedophilia is SO IN right now according to Salon.
Also, sorry for the lack of posts lately even compared to normal. I just moved from CA to my own place in Arizona and am still acclimating.
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Wow. This is one of the longest shitposts I’ve ever read, and I like reading anticrack-kun’s posts.
If reviews are so problematic and triggering to you for their length and the fact sometimes they disagree with the immense ignorance of the entire medium you and everyone else on /a/ has for anime as well as your personal views, then please by all means don’t look at another one ever again for your own sake.
There’s definitely plenty of room in the safe space circlejerk 4chan chat groups and ‘generals’ for you. It’s okay. It’s tough to see someone who actually knows their shit talking about something you think you’re well versed in and going way over your head, but once you shy back away into the ironic hugbox of ignorance and feefees that /a/ became then you won’t have to be scared any more.
Bondrewd isn’t evil for the sake of being evil. He isn’t even evil in the traditional sense. Bondrewd’s aspiration is to explore the mysteries of the abyss. The voice acting in the anime was spot-on when Bondrewd calmly told that Black Whistle that he didn’t view his test subjects as human. There was no evil laugh or hostility. There was no vengeance or sadism. He just doesn’t care. I suppose it could be equated in a sense to a farmer and his chickens. It’s closer to that type of relationship. You don’t at this time know the background of Bondrewd’s character. In any case, Bondrewd is anything but a neuro-typical sane individual. He’s a true mad scientist who really does seek the truth. Research is all that matters to him.
In regards to Ozen being retarded and you viewing Bondrewd as atypical, that actually makes sense because they are White Whistles.
They are erratics that have devoted their lives to the abyss. They are not normal people and don’t think like normal people. Most would consider them to be crazy. Ozen is very tame and could be considered “tough love”. She had no regard for Riko’s safety in a way because her logic was that if she died here she would have never gone any further.
She’s relatively reasonable and generally anti-social. Bondrewd is often considered an absolute bastard by virtually everyone and also considered the worst of all the White Whistles as Ozen told Riko and Reg. You’ll see to what extent Bondrewd has gone in the future if you ever see it.
The reason that Mitty can neutralize poisons stems from her wish when she was ascending from the sixth layer. She desired to save Nanachi no matter what and became unkillable as a result.
I enjoyed this show because of the very high sense of realism. It’s rare to see a show that actually puts so much thought and effort into the writing and storytelling as well as the illustrations. For instance, most shows simply show that some people are “good” cooks and others are “bad” cooks often making jokes about how X character can’t cook for his life. That’s not the case in MiA. When Riko is out of commission, we see Reg try to cook, and the problems he faced are real problems. The dish will really taste like excrement if prepared that way. We got a detailed first-person look at Reg and his attempted cooking along with the problems he faced and the terrible result. Nanachi’s problem is that she simply mashes foods together. Their struggles actually make sense. One of my friends is a food fanatic and he for the most part enjoyed the cooking scenes for their realism.
I’m not saying that there are no problems with the series, but it does set a fairly high bar for realism. If you find all these issues with this story, I’m not sure what series in this genre you do think are more realistic. Most series have many more problems. Definitely let me know though as I’m a fan of realism. I’m very interested in your viewpoint.
The writer may very well have pedophillic tendencies considering some of the artwork I’ve seen on the manga covers. That’s quite possibly his fetish and can’t be denied though that wasn’t a part of the actual story.
The anime even censored out all the showing of nipples, so I still don’t see a real problem in this case at least from what we’re shown in the anime. It’s a far cry from the blatant and tasteless fan service you often see, and the nudity was rarely if ever sexualized.
I feel like the “he just doesn’t care” type of villain is exactly the typical villain nowadays though with just a smidgen less appearances than the “I’m actually saving everyone by killing everyone” type. The guy just comes off as a caricature of Mengele or Wirths where, as you said, there is no emotion or evil intent there – just an obsessive thirst for knowledge at a cost that doesn’t matter because it’s justified. Ironically this is ACTUALLY dehumanizing for Mitty and Nanachi, another thing that upsets me about how they handled it because it just rubs in your face how misunderstood the term actually was. They’re dehumanized by Mengele Jr here, seen genuinely as just things to pull data from not human beings, yet the show treats you like a child and has to make them LITERAL MONSTERS to get across that fact. Just like this guy has to be illustrated to be a monster himself by very specifically stating that he doesn’t see them as human, which again goes back to just how EDGY the show became which leads back to him being generic. If it’s realistic why is he randomly saying this by pure coincidence to a guy who has been working for him for awhile and knew about this stuff already right outside of her room at the exact right timing for her to hear it? The answer is because it’s fiction and we needed to establish this man is an evil abomination of a person who views children as less than even lab rats as he views them only as, essentially, non-living husks to be filled with useful information via experimentation.
Also you go on to talk about the realism in other areas – I said it in the review but I will again; I absolutely loved many elements of this show especially before and immediately after Ozen’s arc. Not only was it realistic even in such a completely fantastical setting but that realism was handled very well and made those parts of this show really something special, the cooking, the general surviving, the trekking through barely ever explored territory, it was all so fucking good and that’s WHY I hated how things turned out so much which I thought was pretty obvious in the review but maybe easily lost in my complaints. In fact the lack of realism in the ending and in Ozen’s parts are what baffled and irritated me. You went from that realism into generic mega-edgy shounen storytelling with generic mega-edgy shounen characters out of nowhere who don’t fit with what the show was presenting up to that point. You go from exploring and adventuring down this endless cave fighting against the wilds mixed with fun little moments like those cooking bits and such…to here is the main girl BLEEDING OUT MORE THAN 3 ADULT MEN COULD WITHOUT DYING being totally fine also her internal organs healed overnight because they did and even though we specifically had Nanachi say “I can’t fix these damaged nerves in her hand” her nerves were magically fixed because they just were and then an evil edgelord who totally has no feelings because he’s just so obsessively science and information minded pops up and a story about a girl turning into a blob becomes the main focal point of the show for the last episodes.
I can see disagreeing with my feelings on it but that shit HAPPENED it maybe didn’t BOTHER you but it absolutely did HAPPEN, it was a major turn from “here is great realism in a great fantastical world” to “here is a little girl who should have died literally within 2 minutes of how much blood was pouring out of her tiny body or at least ended up with serious repercussions from what just took place but she’s totally fine because a robot boy gave her CPR and a monster drooled on her”. You talk about realism yet set it aside whenever it would work against the narrative – and the show does the same which is one of the most aggravating things about it because, again, I loved that realism and maturity it had (I even nonstop praised it in the post just prior to this one about the season’s shows) and it just randomly decides to toss that shit aside and be completely unbelievable for the sake of having an edgy scene to attract people to watch/read it instead. Hell, the entire way the white whistles all turned out ignores realism as well just for the sake of having generic “interesting so it will get readers” characters. How realistic is it to just happen to have this group of a bunch of fucking insane people running around so conveniently for the story?
It doesn’t set a high bar for realism because the realism in it is simplistic – nice BECAUSE of that simplicity of it and genuine feeling to it, but still simple – and is COMPLETELY UNDERMINED BY THE FACT IT SHITS ALL OVER IT WHENEVER IT WANTS TO. A realistic take of this would be, as I’ve said plenty in the review, man vs nature – not man vs insane evil scientist man and various other crazy nutter edgelords alongside a bunny girl and a main character who should be fucking dead and they didn’t even bother explaining how she survived all that blood loss or the fact her internal organs literally were all burst. It’s because of the realism and all the other massive potential of this super mysterious setting that I’m so upset by what I felt it gave me in the end.
Again though, appreciate that you spent the time to explain things in more detail with further info from the manga as well but I just don’t think I can go back to this show if there’s more of it later because even that stuff just raises a lot of red flags against what I wanted out of this – and also against what I consider good writing because the more you say the more it comes off as this author just changing things in retrospect and forcing things in that I really don’t believe should be here because he for some fucking reason believed it would be too boring if it was just about them being put up against this unnatural form of nature (be it brought on by aliens, an ancient civilization, or actual literal nature itself). That really is the core of my issues I think, it feels like all this stuff was added in because he had some misguided sense (or a publisher did) that nobody wants to read a realistic dive into an unrealistic world because they thought it’s “boring” yet that concept was fantastic and was being executed incredibly well, there was no need for that change.
I really wish this could have stuck to those elements of realism and just existing in this harsh environment and all the little things from dealing with finding and cooking food and learning about different creatures and things like that – I’d even be okay with all this stuff I complained about with Girl “dying” and Nanachi saving her if it didn’t come packed with this “now the point of the story is about this researcher more than just simple pure adventure” forced in as a narrative. To me there shouldn’t be a story here beyond these two kids (and maybe Nanachi) on this arduous, terrifying, and dangerous but also beautiful, wonderful, and unique journey like it started as – having an antagonist, no matter if they were someone I thought was a fantastic one or shitty one, is a big (not the only, but one of the bigger ones) problem for me in this case.
The story doesn’t revolve around Bondrewd. Bondrewd is just one White Whistle and just one leg in their saga. The fact that White Whistles exist and explore the deeper layers is an integral part of the story. It shouldn’t be expected for there to be no human interaction. The reason Riko journeyed into the abyss in the first place was to find her mom. The story never was just man vs. nature. From the very beginning other humans were part of the story. Riko’s father was killed by foreign cave raiders and Lyza killed scores of foreigners. You see this world isn’t harsh just because of nature. It’s also harsh because of the other humans which is just like the real world. I feel you’re really ignoring one of the overarching themes of the story.
Bondrewd wasn’t outside Nanachi’s door. Nanachi got up and crossed at least one hallway to overhear the conversation. True we don’t know the deal with this particular Black Whistle. Sounded to me that he was overseeing the research Bondrewd conducts and possibly reporting back to Orth. Orth provides funding for Bondrewd’s research though you probably wouldn’t know that at this point. Orth overlooks the inhumane experiments because Bondrewd’s research provides results. He could have also been a part of the research team but not directly involved with the experiments. Bondrewd actually questioned the guy why he was bringing up the topic so late as you mentioned. The Black Whistle hadn’t seen the experiments conducted live for sure as Bondrewd invited him to watch.
With Riko’s hand, she does have some permanent or lasting nerve damage. She can only move her thumb (barely) when she initially takes off the cast. She gains back partial use of the hand after weeks of rehabilitation. We don’t know the exact amount of time. It isn’t good as new, but it’s decent. Nerves can grow back, but it does take a good amount of time (~1 Inch/Month?). Since Nanachi did her best to try and stitch the nerves and clean up the injury, it’s certainly possible depending on how much time transpired and how serious the nerve damage. In real life, we’ve even had successful arm transplants. I actually think this was another area where realism was shown in great detail. Most shows would have just had a way to make her arm magically better. The makeshift surgery and rehabilitation were actually explained reasonably well in this case.
Yeah I didn’t address her bleeding out. Reg ascended despite knowing the repercussions of the curse because there was no other way to escape without being caught. Orbie would have killed Riko if Reg didn’t find a place out of its reach. Riko didn’t bleed out buckets of blood. Reg let Riko bleed out more than he would have normally because Riko wanted the poison to get out of her system. The tears of blood continually pouring out were added to the anime and probably were meant for added dramatic effect. Reg at least didn’t wipe them away in the manga and have them pour out again. I thought it was an interesting touch personally. With internal damage to the body, it wouldn’t be too surprising. With regards to the CPR, I think that’s mostly accurate. Her face was grayish because she wasn’t breathing. Once Reg cleared her airways with CPR and adjusting her body position, her face regained color once she started weakly breathing again. She might have been choking on blood previously. Seemed to make sense to me. Most anime just have characters coughing out blood for no reason when they are hit in chest. That just doesn’t happen without internal bleeding, and we do have that here. If it’s not a perfect scene, it’s far more realistic than most scenes I’ve watched.
I see retconning with resulting contradictions in shows like Naruto Shippuden and many long-running shonen. With MiA, I haven’t seen a sign of contradiction. It’s self-consistent. We discover the world, and so do the characters. There is actually quite a lot of foreshadowing, so it seems to me that the author had a good idea of where the story was headed. I’m struggling to understand the problem. A good story is consistent and has foreshadowing. I don’t see contradictions or events happening without reason and proper set-up, so at the very least there isn’t a drastic problem. If you understand just how far this show went in terms of realism, why drop the show for more shaky reasons?
Curious if you’re watching Shoujo Shuumatsu Ryokou this season? That show revolves around two young girls in a post-apocalyptic setting. There are no other people, and it might very well just be (wo)man vs. nature. Sounds like it might appeal to you if it also has a sense of realism. I also still wonder what shows you think set the bar in terms of realism as I still strongly feel MiA is at the top of the list.
I think what you aren’t getting from what I’m saying is that yes, you have explanations for everything from later in the manga – but this brings 2 issues. First is that it just helps bolster the concept that it was written retroactively because almost all your points are relying on later reveals/information that, when he wrote these parts, did not exist yet and so could easily have been written based on things he could think of to manipulate into meaning something else than he originally did. Again, I bring back the comparison to Kojima’s Metal Gear series or even Kingdom Hearts – both franchises that entirely and admittedly unplanned took things from prior bits of their own story and used them in a way that comes off as if it were always planned and even twist things that happened/were said and fully meant one thing to now conveniently changing meaning. Then you listen to interviews and learn that they outright admit, say, “well Liquid was way more popular than I thought so I had to work him into the later games again and so I had Ocelot take his arm and become Liquid Ocelot”. Ocelot did not lose his arm so that he could later end up with Liquid’s arm and then all the hilariously stupid shit about brainwashing himself into believing it was really controlling him etc blah blah – he lost it to lose it, then Kojima realized “well that dead guy sure was popular…oh I know!” and his severed hand now served a purpose. It was never the plan, it was never thought out, it was written later to sound like it was on purpose all along and this guy then became the absolute primary antagonist from then on when he was originally planned to be a low level generic spy-baddy. That’s not uncommon nor is it necessarily bad, but here it feels very clunky and misleading/disingenuous rather than purely overly convenient.
Secondly, and most importantly, having an explanation for an event does not make that event automatically good or well written, it just means it makes sense within the canon on some level. You can argue even perfect objective points about how “in the canon it makes sense” but that doesn’t make it not stupid or shitty it just means that it doesn’t contradict in-story lore. Even if Mengele here was PERFECTLY planned, PERFECTLY foreshadowed, and so on it would not change my view on him existing as fucking stupid because from a not-in-world point of view but in our world as someone consuming this piece of fiction it simply is fucking stupid and incredibly unappealing when it’s shoved into a story that, other than the white whistles, felt realistic in an unrealistic world.
You ask why drop the show for shakier reasons when I enjoy the realism and overall the parts I do like – well that’s simply because the shit I don’t like is way more prominent and a stronger force on the quality and feeling of the show ever since Ozen showed up. I might like some aspects a lot but when it’s completely obfuscated in dumb bullshit that comes off as edgy shit you’d find in, well, Naruto, I just cannot force myself to keep caring about those good parts. Almost 100% of the time Reg and Girl interact with another human being post-episode 1-4 feels INCREDIBLY fucking stupid and off putting and made me lose interest 100% of the time every time it happened. The problem is not the concepts and ideas we’re mentioning back and forth – but the EXECUTION of those things. Dr Mengele is so in-your-face and unsubtle, Ozen is so in-your-face and unsubtle, and both are so generic especially the former who is the go-to antagonist of people trying to pretend they can write villains by saying “w-well see he’s not EVIL he’s just detached and overly scientific!” if you haven’t seen a character like him before that astounds me because he’s been the second most popular type of villain in all forms of fiction from literature and plays to movies and anime since the mid 40s. Having either of them EXIST would be fine – like, again, I’m fine with Nanachi existing aside her stupid backstory because she as a character is executed totally fine. Mengele and Ozen are over the top caricatures that are as on the nose as possible about what they are just like the curse couldn’t be anything meaningful and subtle it also had to be completely in your face super over literal to get across the author’s point because he was too talentless to do it with any class. The show treats you like a retarded child who can’t grasp what it’s trying to say or how it’s trying to characterize people and resorts to slamming you over the head with it and that’s insulting and poor writing.
As for the realism point and comparisons – I’m having a problem not because there are no other realistic shows, let alone ones far more realistic, but that it’s confusing what you’re exactly asking for. For example you just compared Made in Abyss to Naruto – I don’t see how because one of those is a battle shounen and the other, well, isn’t. So then what are these comparisons based on? Purely realism? Sure, I can list you 100 shows that are realistic but none are going to be battle shounen from shounen jump or be about diving into a giant alien cavern because the former simply doesn’t exist because that would go against the entire point and conventions of the genre in a bad way (confusing as well because MIA isn’t one), and the latter as I’ve admitted is a unique idea so there are no shows THAT specifically similar to compare it to. I can’t say a single comparison in realism that would make sense without more specifications or context – I can’t really sit here comparing MIA to romances, coming of age stories, even other fantasy stories that are focused more in other aspects but that are similarly fantastical while realistic, sports, historical drama, police procedurals, and so on now can I? Plus the “realistic” aspects of this show are undermined and even outright dismantled by everything around them so comparing it to things that are too realistic would feel like bullshit because it simply isn’t realistic outside of within its own established lore or SPECIFIC MOMENTS that choose to ignore the realism completely making the other realism less appealing because it’s inconsistent. I don’t mean the fantasy/sci fi aspect, obviously something can be totally realistic while covered in unreal things, I just mean even those parts I liked now, in retrospect, come off as fake and unnatural as well as, most importantly maybe, incredibly minimal in comparison to the unrealistic and stupid bullshit. So for a real comparison I’d need something with a similar level of bullshit and a similar feeling of minimal and only half-proper realism and now we’re in a situation of TOO specific instead of too vague.
I suppose you asked a general question of what sets the bar for realism rather than comparisons, in that case the number is incredibly numerous. For a recent example, Tsuki ga Kirei, there you go. It is literally 0% like MIA but it is absolutely completely realistic and it pays off in spades. What “sets the bar” beyond that – things like Nana (which has many over the top rare-in-life elements yet still manages to handle them completely realistically, especially as someone who has been through almost all the same shit in slightly different ways), Honey and Clover, Oofuri, Planetes, Bakuman, Hourou Musuko, and I could keep going on and on and through various genres. Then there are plenty of other things I just wouldn’t include as setting the bar but definitely near reaching it, like Cross Game, Alderamin, Showa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu (season 1 anyway), or semi-historical war dramas like currently airing Altair – and plenty of others. I’m not even including all the slice of life or comedy stuff that fits (plenty is unrealistic in both cases anyway). Maybe even Fate/Zero in many aspects, though not entirely.
Oh, and yeah I’m watching the girls on their little nazi tank-cycle, though I’m questioning the quality of it as well. I’m enjoying it and like what it’s doing – especially given how godawful the new Kino is, this is filling that hole quite well – but there are elements that simply make no sense as well as character actions/reactions even within the first episode that either clash with the so-far established lore or make it clear the director believes he’s doing a wayyyy better job than he is. For example believing people would fall for the scene of taking the last ration and holding the girl up – when literally about 90 seconds prior the girl was just admitting she doesn’t even know what war is or why it ever existed or – ironically specific – why anyone would fight about food, as well as making it clear these two are close with one another, making the scene just forced faked drama and making it come off as – again – disingenuous for viewership rather than for the betterment of the show. Instead of sitting there shocked by what was happening I was sitting there amazed that they thought such a shitty scene would come off as believable to anybody watching and not just this girl playing around (dangerously). Yet also understanding what it was done for – it’s the same as all the gratuitous but meaningless gore elements of Girl “dying” in MIA while having no meaningful real repercussions ever after it. It was made so people would spread images of the scene and raise viewership/readership rather than literally anything else. It was a marketing scheme and nothing more than that.
Again it’s a case where the actual stuff is fine I’m definitely enjoying the show so far and only even have those complaints after finishing an episode and thinking about it further – I don’t watch anime for realism unless the show is trying to promote itself as realistic – but what bothers me, just like with MiA, is the dishonesty and poor handling of various elements by the writer and director. Less so here as it barely just started and hopefully it doesn’t keep doing it, but I just wanted to say the problem again is not with the realism or consistency but with execution and overall quality. In this case however still very hopeful and aside that (which didn’t bother me while watching really) I’m really liking it so far.
also we’ve both said so much i forget if I said it already anywhere, but as far as the human threat goes – yes, i’m fine with that existing in terms of foreign or illegal raiders being a short-lived antagonistic issue and actually was looking forward to run-ins with maybe someone down there who SHOULDNT be down there who has a gun and we have to end up fighting and maybe even killing another human being with some weight to it, but that isn’t the case here. Instead we get an evil scientist straight out of Hitler’s regime covered in the darkest garments he could find to look as much like darth vader as he could and wearing the edgiest fucking necklace possible which surely has some retarded angsty backstory to it to boot.
I think I understand your viewpoint quite well as I just explained it in detail to a friend and essentially acted as devil’s advocate, even drawing points you didn’t since I’ve actually read the manga. Well as an ongoing series, it makes sense that we aren’t privy to the finer details of the world and discover the abyss along with the cast of characters. Generally the author will have a solid outline of the story and where it will go but details will be filled in along the way. That’s the way a story goes normally. There’s not an inherent problem as long as the work is cohesive and if there’s adequate foreshadowing. Ozen specifically warns them that Bondrewd is an absolute bastard and “not as nice as her”. As far as appearance goes all the White Whistles have uncommon appearances. One looks like a plague doctor and another appears to be a diver. They are all covered in some sort of dark cloth in some form or another. They are always depicted as mysterious (i.e. Srajos, Lord of Mystery) and have legions of admirers on the surface.
OK I’ve organized my responses a bit by quoting the first line of the paragraph I’m referencing. That way no confusion.
“Secondly, and most importantly, having an explanation for an event does not make that event automatically good or well written…”
That’s certainly true that an event being adequately explained doesn’t make it well-written. Riko could trip over a rock and die. It might be realistic, but that is poor storytelling. I don’t see how that relates to this situation even with your explanation as you’re claiming that Bondrewd was shoved into the story when he was planned from the start. Again White Whistles are an integral part of the story. Remember why Riko wanted to journey into the Abyss? Because she wanted to find her mother (Lyza the Annihilator, White Whistle). This isn’t just a man vs. nature story. The story is about exploring the mysteries of the abyss and about the people who explore the abyss. I don’t totally understand what you have against White Whistles in general.
“You ask why drop the show for shakier reasons when I enjoy the realism and overall the parts I do like…”
Yeah I disagree completely regarding the human interactions after Episode 4. They were executed well in that the characters were properly developed and acted realistically. Which interactions do you mean specifically? I care about execution, and that’s why I view Bondrewd’s character highly. You have barely seen Bondrewd at all at this point in the series, so it makes little sense to just regard his character as generic. You mentioned that they are caricatures. Well yes White Whistles are eccentric. That’s to be expected in a way. However they were never cartoonish. Ozen acted the way she did because she felt that was what she needed to do in order to prepare Riko and Reg for their journey. She’s tough love. She acted harshly in order to teach them a lesson and make sure they were prepared for what was beyond. Her character was explained along with her relationship with Lyza. With most mad scientists, they often act in desperation or complete obsession. Bondrewd is calm and rational and yet has an insatiable curiosity and will to research the abyss. That’s what drives him as a character. You’re viewing good and evil too linearly. Bondrewd is not just evil and does not perform experiments for the sake of being evil. Bondrewd simply does what he does in order to further his research. He recruits foreign orphans because children are easy to manipulate and make convenient test subjects. The scenes where we see Bondrewd aren’t made so we see him as evil. They are made so we get an insight into his way of thinking. I’d definitely like to know what villains you view as best written in fantasy/sci-fi anime. Bondrewd is definitely a very good villain considering just how poorly the vast majority of villains are written in this genre. Seems interesting to discuss.
“As for the realism point and comparisons…”
I never compared MiA to Naruto. I said that long-running shonen often suffer from ret-conning. In those types of shows, the retconning is absolutely terrible and often conflicts with the established story. Execution is lackluster, and even the author may forget details. It’s just not a problem I see in MiA (Which is not a long-running shonen or a shonen). Also I asked specifically what anime in the fantasy/sci-fi genre you think are more realistic. I’m interested in finding out. Not just anime as a whole. Obviously shows in vastly different genres depict realism in different ways. Realism in MiA is next-level IMO. Not only was a lot of thought put into finer details including cooking and medical issues, but even the background scenery was animated with surprising accuracy. When Reg’s incinerator obliterates Mitty, we notice that the grass in the perimeter around the site has caught on fire, and the rock is nearly molten in the crater. When the children are walking into the orphanage we notice a clear pattern in the foliage where parts of the grass are barren because they were haphazardly walked on mainly by children. It’s very rare for creators to put so much thought and effort into their works for the sake of realism and detail. It’s refreshing, and I miss it already.
“I suppose you asked a general question of what sets the bar for realism rather than comparisons…”
Woah thanks for the recommendations. But yeah Fantasy/Sci-Fi as said above. I’ll take a look though at your list. I may check out Planetes. I’ve watched F/Z and the rest of the Fate franchise. Undoubtedly F/Z has the strongest plot and best character development of any Fate anime. Certainly not perfect in terms of realism as there is some classic exaggeration à la Hollywood style. But still fairly good.
“Oh, and yeah I’m watching the girls on their little nazi tank-cycle.”
Yeah fair enough regarding that scene. I get your perspective, and yeah it does seem strange she’d act that way towards her friend given what we knew about them.
What I’m trying to say with
“Secondly, and most importantly, having an explanation for an event does not make that event automatically good or well written…”
is that the events are fucking stupid to me. I really just don’t know how to simplify it further than that. I’ve been trying really hard to listen and understand what you have to say and explain my perspective as well as I can in return, but I feel like both of us are just repeating ourselves at this point just in a more specific way each further reply and it’s getting kind of redundant at this point.
Maybe it’s my fault, maybe I went into this expecting something different from what it actually was – but I can’t accept blame for that when the show itself provided that misunderstanding of what it would be rather than a bunch of forced drama, hilariously over the top supporting cast members, and something more than an adventure through a beautiful yet dangerous hellscape to get there. Whether that stuff is foreshadowed or not, it is absolutely not what the show WAS up until Ozen’s appearance and her incredibly over-acted voice acting and execution of her character overall. Whether its foreshadowed, whether you like her and this scientist guy or not, I can’t imagine you wouldn’t agree that there is at the very least a drastic change in tone and feeling of the show (on purpose) from every episode PRIOR to that and from that episode on – not saying good or bad, but that such a change is clearly there.
There was a huge change there, and in the end that change is just not something I personally liked whether it was planned and foreshadowed or whatever else, I was mislead by the entirety of every episode until that one aired into really enjoying the show for reasons that simply can’t coexist with what the show then strode into being. If I went into the show and it was that from the start or I had read the manga first and knew the real nature of the show then, well, I wouldn’t have gone into the show at all and there’d be no issue because I’d just have written it off as something I’m simply not interested in and maybe set it as plan to watch some day or even step past it all together. Instead, I went in to this show knowing nothing but the bare minimum description and look of it and was handed something I thought for a good while could be anime of the year material and something special for years to come only to have it slap me in the face with dumb bullshit and ruin all of that. The fact I stuck with the show to the end should be proof enough I gave this a fair shot even despite the change making me pretty certain it had nothing left for me.
I get what you’re doing, I get what you’re trying to say, and like I’ve already said multiple times I do appreciate you taking the time to go out of your way to defend something you clearly like a lot without being a dick about it like people tend to end up being. What you aren’t getting, and maybe that’s partially my fault for trying to explain it out instead of just make it as simple as possible and repeat it clearly, is that I just don’t like it. I also simply don’t have as much belief in the talent of this writer as you clearly do.
No matter how many counterpoints you have to my complaints, explanations and reasoning for things I disliked, it doesn’t change that no matter what I just don’t fucking like those things and those things became the prevailing focus of the show. Whether they were even hypothetically super well written, super well executed, super justified, and super foreshadowed it wouldn’t change that this is not something I would like and the only reason I even ended up watching it is because I was misled by the show itself for weeks before it said “well actually this is a different type of show entirely”; a type of show I don’t like with character archetypes I don’t like and a bunch of shit I don’t like filling everything in between. Like I said in the same paragraph that quote you used is from, I just think no matter the backstory or development that this researcher character existing is fucking stupid and that the white whistles all being insane practically alien people based on Ozen and the fucking duck looking guy is just as goddamn dumb and not something I enjoy.
I was fine going on this long back and forth because discussing things is important and of course debating views is even more important, but I don’t feel like anything new is being said either way aside more specific plot points on your end and me changing how I word “I don’t like it”. We aren’t debating anything with a real factual answer or objective data so that could literally go on forever with nothing for it and I think we’ve both said enough at this point. I just don’t like it and I stand by pretty much everything I’ve said up to this point just as strongly, I assume, as you stand by everything you’ve said and hell maybe we can have another discussion this thorough over another show some time as well.
We both even agreed on what makes a good story – but stopped at really discussing what it means beyond definable traits. Yes, Made in Abyss might possibly feature elements in the way it’s written of a good story – but the execution of many of its ideas come off to me as if it was written by a really angsty edgy teenager trying to appeal to otaku and haphazardly thrown together. Whether it is those things or not doesn’t change that the concepts themselves in the specific form they took are just fucking stupid to me. Like I said before, conceptually some research group doing bad things and shit could be fine, but the fact it’s this overly in-your-face “you-are-too-stupid-to-get-it-otherwise” type of fashion where he’s got this evil deep voice, is covered entirely in black garb and even a black helmet with no skin showing, is presented as foreboding and dangerous even down to the way he walks (yes, good attention to detail, but bad for someone meant to be believable and not comically villainous to the point of belonging in a Disney movie), talks openly about how people that are used in his experiments aren’t people *while also purposefully only choosing children to do it with, brags to his experiment result about her friend becoming a fucking blob monster who can’t die (certainly not edgy at all), and walks around with two severed mini-hands clasped together as an accessory regardless of the backstory of it?
I want absolutely nothing to do with that, I don’t care that there’s a reason he’s this way or any other in-universe justification for his existence or personality or way he dresses, I care that in this fictional story he was written to exist in this way, even if he is given in-universe reasoning for it, and that to me is something I just can’t abide. I don’t care why he exists in terms of the in-universe explanation, I care why the writer put something like this in the story to begin with because it just comes off as fucking retarded and out-of-place childish. The same goes for Ozen and definitely Mitty as well and probably every other white whistle the show didn’t get around to as well as the completely lacking in subtlety presentation of all of them.
Again, just like many others, this isn’t what I was watching the show for. It’s arguable I should have dropped it once I realized that, but I just wanted to hope it’d turn back around and instead I got it taking an even deeper dive in a direction I really didn’t want to go. And honestly even if I went in knowing what it was so much of it is just so forced and comes off as trying too hard and overly desperate to get attention on itself.
Humm yeah that’s true if your reasoning just boils down to you not liking the direction of the story. There’s no room for discussion in those areas because we fundamentally disagree. Just seems the story didn’t explore what you wanted.
I disagree that there was a tonal shift. The story was headed in this direction from the start. We didn’t know the exact manner, but there was a sense of seriousness and a dark undertone underneath the surface. Well that’s my view. Doesn’t need to be discussed further.
Quick notes. I understand your perspective to a degree, and you do bring up some interesting points. There certainly remains a level of shock factor which makes sense in the context of the story and is intended to jar the audience. The author does also have his fetishes. Can’t be denied. However some of the points you brought up just aren’t true. Riko getting injured and later recovering was actually fairly well explained and further lent to the realism. You mentioned that Lyza and Oden went further into the abyss than Bondrewd and returned. This is also not true as no delver has ever returned from the sixth layer alive to our current knowledge. Oden never went further than Idofront. Going beyond that point is called a delver’s last dive which is exactly what Lyza did.
Anyways yeah enough of that. Curious why you think Erased is a disappointment? I’ve been wondering. I’ll list areas where I personally think it failed and succeeded. It still is high on my list and one of the more realistic shows in this genre. I did see some issues, especially with the ending. The anime had limited time and so skipped a good portion of the story to jump to a conclusion. Unfortunately Yashiro’s backstory was also never explored which would have been interesting. Certainly Yashiro’s eventual downfall on the rooftop and refraining from murders for over a decade seemed too convenient and even “stupid” as you might say. I also get if you thought how he sent himself way back in time a second time was silly.
I also thought that the protagonist didn’t take enough advantage of the fact that he came from the future. He was so entirely fixated on the string of murders that scarred his childhood that he was never able to do anything greater. Imagine if one of us were to be in his shoes except in our own lives. The possibilities would be endless and the effects we could have on the world would be innumerable. Even if he were so compelled to stop these murders, there’s little reason for him to not at least write down future events or something, anything. I can understand to a degree that these events consumed his life and perhaps he doesn’t follow world events or local events. It does bother me sometimes when authors don’t realize the consequences of their set-up or forget the implications.
What I don’t think is a problem. The MC having the ability to essentially send his consciousness into the past. I heard one reviewer say that he found it a problem that his power was never explained. I found no issue with his power because it was explained that he gained the ability after the trauma of failing to save someone. That’s why the power stemmed from his regret and manifested afterwards, and that’s why the power vanished in the end of the story when he no longer has regrets. You don’t need a long history or secret society to explain his power. It was a miracle. I do wonder how many people he saved in the original “time line” with his ability.
Erased has a Lord of Flies level of symbolism and foreshadowing. Cinematography was outstanding throughout the series. Some scenes such as the tree scene were executed so damn well. Perhaps you didn’t like the lack of subtlety or felt it was too film-schooly? Dunno if that’s any part of it, but I could understand that.
Well I’ll absolutely concede that for elements I was simply wrong on (how far her mom went) I was, well, wrong on and misunderstood some line at some point probably and confused myself. Plus as you clearly know I’ve only seen the show, so a lot of elements I’m having to rely purely on what was provided there. I’m sure all my points aren’t perfectly defensible when it comes to that type of stuff but with everything else I definitely gave everything you said a fair thought and it just ends up the result is still the same in terms of my feelings towards it whether it’s based on facts, debatable aspects, or just what i wanted not being what it had – I wasn’t sure if they’d change at first so it was still definitely a talk worth having.
As for Erased, I mean I wrote a whole post about my issues with it (especially the ending), I don’t know how much more I could say especially with it airing awhile ago. I will say the power wasn’t an issue for me, just like with any other show if something like that is the point of it I’m fine with it being there and not even explained well if both 1. it isn’t the point and 2. it’s still HANDLED well and the rest of the show doesn’t suffer for it or the lacking explanation. I’m surprised to hear people bitched about him having that power when it was kind of the entire main aspect of the story even being able to take place – I tend to avoid anime fans in a larger sense so I don’t really see reactions to most things, even big ones like this aside the general “WOAH AMAZING” reception. It’s been awhile since I watched it so I don’t know how much I could say beyond what I did already both because I feel like I said everything I could and at this point it’s pretty far out of my memory. Hopefully the post can get to a lot of your points – and actually I agree with a lot of what you said about it just now and you’re kind of right about my issues with it especially the lack of subtlety in a mystery, where subtle things are the most important as well as a lot of the same problems I have with the researcher in MiA of over-the-top cartoony villains. There’s actually a lot of things that ruined it for me so luckily I did write them all out, sometimes I don’t and I genuinely just fucking forget a year later.
Anyway I did a whole write up here
And an ahead of time apology, don’t always expect such long responses as these earlier ones – I’m not saying they won’t happen at all or I won’t try thoroughly answering things, but I’m still moving in to a new place, dealing with some injuries from the move, and still trying to write plenty of other stuff and watch like 20 shows a season among a few other things. It’s all kind of self imposed aside the pain stuff, but it’s still fairly busy. Plus, sometimes I just really don’t have much to say.
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Thanks for the reply and link! I’ll check it out, and yeah I wouldn’t expect lengthy replies all the time.
Was that actually you in the video? Lol.
No, video isn’t even mine (my youtube is CurryButt23) actually it was made by the other comment here (Monty) but it’s not him either, that audio at the end part is all taken from a crazy pedophile edgelord bathtub boy that Mister Metokur found. Pretty retardedly hilarious (though also worrisome) stuff, should watch.
Oh come on, I even put a disclaimer in the video about who it was.
The first parts weren’t me either, those were Ryan Davis(now deceased sadly) and Jeff Gerstmann(dead on the inside) of GiantBomb Dot Com. That was from their like 10 hour livestream of the kinect launch lineup. I recommend it!
I meant the two at the beginning. I’d have been a bit worried if the retard at the end was Tallon. But thanks for clearing that up.
Yeah, I’d be concerned too. That guy is nuts.
But yeah first two aren’t us either, I WISH I was as funny and entertaining as Ryan.
oh oops, yeah the two at the start are Jeff and Ryan from GB, good stuff definitely recommend especially the stuff back when Ryan was still alive if you want to spend some time watchin somethin new
The abyss turns you into a monster because it does. There’s a force in it that gets moved aside when you move so animals can sense your movement because there is. It can fucking kill you when you ascend not because of altitude sickness but because it does.
It just does.
I don’t have to explain it I can just say “it does. Isn’t that MYSTERIOUS?”.
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The effects of the curse are explained from the start of the series. Ascending from the sixth layer to the fifth layer causes loss of humanity or death. Mitty turned into an amorphous blob because she carried the brunt of two curses. Bondrewd is a researcher and examines his specimens. The other children were discarded since they weren’t immediately useful. However he did keep them in his base as opposed to actually disposing of them. Mitty wasn’t tossed down the rabbit hole because she carried unique properties which included her being virtually unkillable. Bondrewd continued to research those properties. Bondrewd at best was able to destroy one of her eyes with Sparagos and prevent it from regenerating.
The abyss acts as a force field according to Nanachi. The force field is affected even by the subconscious mind not just movements.
When you get down to it that the same principles exist in our world. There isn’t really a true mathematical derivation of Schrodinger’s Equation. It just exists as a fundamental property at least to our current knowledge. Many other fundamental properties are the same way. They just exist so far as we know to our current understanding. The force field of the abyss is a supernatural force that dominates the abyss. That’s the extent of how people understand it.
For all we know, the relics in the abyss as well as the force field could be due to the technology of a long-lost civilization or alien society.
There’s nothing wrong with this force field existing. Without the force field existing there wouldn’t even be any light deep in the abyss. The “curse” of the abyss is simply the result of the force field “bursting” when you are going against the flow. Bondrewd utilizes a combination of relics in order to force the entirety of the curse over to one chamber for as long as that subject survives. Normally the best case scenario would be that one subject survives and turns into a “Mitty”-like creature (or dies when ascension is nearly complete) while the other subject survives without being harmed too badly by the repercussions of the curse. In the case of Nanachi, she gained what Bondrewd called the “blessing” of the abyss, so aptly named because it’s what he considers the opposite of the curse. This strangeness is all caused by the focusing of the curse with a combination of relics. Nanachi is the only test subject to become “furry”. Bondrewd is genuinely surprised by the result and finds it very intriguing. We do see further explanation of the curse in the manga and gain more knowledge regarding hollows (narehate).
I never missed the explanation of the curse, however saying “you lose your humanity” does not translate to “you literally turn into a monster-blog or a furry rabbit-person”. Losing one’s humanity is a status we apply to people in real life even, and those people do not transmutate and MORE IMPORTANTLY for sure, nobody in the entire series says it in any way or context that would lead to that belief (until the point where it’s made clear what it means), nobody mentions it with such seriousness, and if that were a known truth to begin with there wouldn’t be experiments being done that just involve shooting kids up an elevator fast to see what happens. Plus, we know people have come up from these lower floors plenty of times without mutating – Hunchback was way fucking deeper than even the guy experimenting on the kids and she never morphed into either option, same with Girl’s mom.
Changing “lose your humanity” being implied to mean something actually legitimate, powerful, and dangerous – ie going insane, degenerating into an instinct-based being, etc while still LITERALLY being human into retarded magic gay shit was a terrible decision and made what was otherwise a really creative handling of REAL SCIENCE into dumb bullshit and I absolutely refuse to believe it was a decision made PRIOR to the chapter it happened. The show makes it EXTREMELY CLEAR that this is just a wacky wild crazy version of altitude sickness and further down mental decay – not fucking transforming because the author THOUGHT HE JUST MEANT ALTITUDE SICKNESS AND MENTAL DECAY until he went full retard and swapped it out for edgy angsty teen shit.
Everything you explain, and don’t get me wrong I appreciate you putting in the work and explaining all that I really do I’m not attacking you for the content you’re talking about itself because it’s not yours, but it’s stupid shit. It’s all fucking stupid and not what I wanted – nor anyone I’ve spoken to about the show wanted – from it or, most importantly, not how it PRESENTED ITSELF until this point in the story (hence people wanting that, not misguidedly wanting something it never promised). It genuinely upsets me when I go into a show like this and it, for so long, holds to one thing – and then throws that away simply to exchange it out for something that will appeal to a different audience better in a purely money based choice rather than a choice made for the betterment of the work itself.
In fact, back to how you mentioned the whole thing about them outright saying you lose your humanity and, like I explained, that is actually one of the main reasons it actually bothers me so much – BECAUSE they state that and make it VERY CLEAR it does not mean “YOU LITERALLY BECOME A NON-HUMAN CREATURE” and nothing ever remotely hints at such a thing and it clearly is presented to lead you into believing it simply means mental and moral capacities, your “humanity” – hell the term humanity itself does not relate to the physical form of a human being in the first place so technically Mitty and Nanachi never did lose their humanity making that entire argument about “well they said you lose your humanity so it makes sense” also completely moot because they are still technically humans, just mutated into something else akin to someone who has to have a leg amputated or who is horribly burned in an acid attack and looks like an alien from then on – both of which are still humans even if they no longer share the proper form of one with the rest of us. You could argue genetics changing means they lost humanity as they are no longer humans technically but that just goes back to the problem of disingenuous shit that I have such a problem with that causes all of this in the first place and this habit of the show of changing meanings of words based on what works best at any given moment.
Also, again, my biggest problem really isn’t this dumb mutation shit, it’s really more to do with how edgy the villain is, that there IS A VILLAIN AT ALL aside nature (and anything in this pit that could be perceived as nature), and the whole scenario of the fake drama about Girl “dying” just to get viewership/readership and curing her losing 300000 pints of blood with a kiss and some slobber. It was completely disingenuous and is my biggest issue – the stuff about Mitty and Nanachi specifically is just an extra layer of shit that ruined it further for me especially when it wasted the entire finale on these two non-characters and killing one off in the least meaningful death in an anime in years to try and pull some sadness out of people so they beg for another season.
I understand, especially with all you said, that it all has a logic to it – but I feel very strongly that said logic was applied retroactively each time a big event happened in the story/lore because the author thought it to be more entertaining/interesting at the time, basically Kojima-tier bullshit and I just can’t stand that sort of thing. Plus, I mean even if all this made sense what the show became is just not a show I’m interested in even if it wasn’t so stupid in the details it’s just edgy and angsty and pretends to kill characters to make sure it blows up on social media and it’s just another show I’d have passed on if I knew this was what was waiting for me anyway.
And really it’s important to say – the show making it clear it’s aware of something does not make that something less shitty. It says there is an explanation for everything but never actually explains anything, it just tells you there’s an answer it just isn’t one for us because IT DOESNT EXIST. THINGS JUST ARE HOW THEY ARE BECAUSE THAT’S WHAT WORKED FOR THE AUTHOR AT THE TIME.
Woah thanks for the lengthy reply and not attacking. Much appreciated.
Well I disagree regarding Bondrewd. I actually view him as an extremely well-written villain and just made another post where I explained in further detail.
You may not turn into an amorphous blob normally. As I said that’s due to the combination of relics forcing the curse into one chamber. The experiment is carried out in such a way that the effects are rapid and continuous over a controlled and length distance. Nanachi so far in the series is so far the first case of anyone becoming “furry”. It should be noted that no cave raider has ever returned from the sixth layer alive (as far as the world knows). I think you didn’t realize that when you posted. Riko’s mom and Ozen have never gone beyond the fifth layer and returned. When Riko’s mom left for her last dive, she entered the sixth layer and was never heard from again. They were never shown to have travelled beyond Idofront (Bondrewd’s base at the bottom of the fifth layer). Nanachi and Mitty were plunged into the sixth layer and then forced to ascend into the fifth layer.
“Loss of Humanity” is just a label. That’s what people observe and have called what happens. Cave raiders have very little first-hand experience of what happens in the deeper layers.
It’s unlikely that anyone other than White Whistles and Black Whistles even encounter the situation at all and are able to report. Information coming from elsewhere would also be discarded as untrustworthy at the surface even if it did happen. Cave raiders wouldn’t consider Nanachi human even though she retained her humanity mentally. Mitty… is Mitty. Nanachi does not believe she shows any signs of consciousness.
I don’t recall the curse of the abyss ever being akin to altitude sickness. Relics are either magical in nature or advanced technology from an ancient civilization. The curse is the same. Perhaps at the bottom of the abyss lies the mothership. We just don’t know and neither do the characters in the story.